Why I'm not buying the 4th edition of Dungeons and Dragons anytime soon

[cnoocy]

I'm not a hardcore gamer. I'm an enthusiastic player of pencil-and-paper role-playing games, but I've probably played or run less that a dozen different systems. I like computer role-playing games, but generally only when played as a group, with multiple people in the same room. One thing I have never been able to get into is online role-playing games. I've had accounts on LambdaMOO and Second Life, but I haven't really done anything with them. It's the talking to strangers that does it, I think. I'm not good at striking up a conversation, especially if I don't have any information about the person. (Though I am only marginally better at doing this in person.) So instead of getting into World of Warcraft and EverQuest over the last few years, I've continued playing Dungeons and Dragons.

You know how a lot of people have been reading the 4th edition rules and saying "this makes me want to get out my dice and play again"? I had that reaction years ago with 3rd edition. And I've been playing since. I've been playing with friends while, it seems, all the famous people have been abandoning pencil and paper to do their gaming online. I don't have a problem with that. I think it's great that there's this new type of gaming developing. But it does mean that while a lot of people see the elements from World of Warcraft in 4th edition as two great tastes that taste great together, to me it looks like they're changing the formula for Coke so that it tastes more like Pepsi.

Note: This was set off by Eric Burns's post on the subject, though I don't have a disagreement other than personal preference with what he says there.

Comments

[servant-of-clio.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. Get your MMO out of my P&P! Curtis is buying the 4th ed. books to crib ideas from, but we'll continue to play with a homebrew based on 3rd ed.

[cnoocy]

Of course, a lot of the play experience depends on your DM. You are very well-supplied there.

[rikchik.livejournal.com]

Somehow the more I hear about this the more it feels like D&D 3 is Perl and D&D 4 is Python.

[dougo.livejournal.com]

I was thinking 3E was XP and 4E was Vista. (Well, that's the popular impression, but I don't agree.)

[lemurtanis.livejournal.com]

I never understand why this makes people cranky. :) They're very different games, but folks seem to feel compelled to declare that they love/hate 4th edition. Would you write a post about how you're not buying Pepsi anytime soon?

[cnoocy]

Good question. I'm pretty sure if New Coke was released today, you would in fact see your friendslist fill with anguished cries of rebellion. :) I think it's that D&D is really important to people, almost a second home. People live parts of their lives in worlds defined by these rules, so when a change in the rules becomes available, it's a significant event and a decision that requires some thought.
But it's also a vicious cycle. The more people talk about it, the more people feel the need to respond. For me, it was seeing post after post saying "4e is like WoW! They've simplified the game and focused it more on combat! I want to play now!" that made me feel compelled to respond. Because, you know, I felt underrepresented, as a non-hardcore gamer who likes 3e the way it is.

[prog.livejournal.com]

Based on all that I've been hearing, 4E is less a retuning of the rules and more a completely different RPG experience. I imagine that people would probably be uncranky if the pubclishers released this game as "Ultimate D&D Extreme" and supported it alongside 3E, instead of taking the D&D they know and love permanently out of print in favor of this new game.

[lapak.livejournal.com]

I picked up the 4th edition rulebooks, and I've got to say this: it isn't WoW. Or any MMO, for that matter. There are a lot of complaints to be made about the new edition - the absence of bards and druids from the initial release makes the top of my list, for example - but 'it's now like computer RPGs' is not one of them. You've inspired me to put up a longer post on my own account to talk about it; it's a little much for comment-length.

It *is* very different from 1-2-3E; so different that it's essentially a different game. But that game is really very little like computer RPGs and MMOGs aside from surface similarities.

[alanrileyscott.livejournal.com]

I'll second this. The game takes inspiration from a lot of things, but MMOs don't have a particularly strong showing. The only thing that seems to draw obvious inspiration from videogames is the way they re-designed rods/staves/wands and robes (the former now work like weapons, while the latter work like armor).

I've seen Party Roles described as something that originates in MMOs, but that doesn't wash for me. It's the same thing that has existed since 1e--you need a healer, or you're screwed. The wizard is going to be in trouble if he doesn't have a guy in heavy armor standing in front of him.

The only thing new in 4e, is that the books have specific terms to describe these things: Leader, Defender, and so forth. And MMOs don't actually do that--WoW certainly has Tanks and DPS, but those aren't official game terms, they're created and used by the fans.

Really, I'd say the primary source of outside mechanical inspiration is Magic: The Gathering--The game makes extensive use of keywords, and it seems to thrive on combos. There are also lots of elements stolen from various other RPGs (the minion rules remind me of feng shui, thought they're probably older than that, and the idea of epic destinies seem very Indie-RPG).

[cnoocy]

The thing is, as an MMO outsider, I can't tell what's part of standard MMO official practice and what's part of MMO culture. And either way, it's clearly jargon, which makes me feel like an outsider to this new form of D&D. And D&D is the one place where I've never felt like an outsider, so having that feeling is in fact a bit upsetting.

I should also note that I'm not a Magic: The Gathering insider, either. I tried to spend the 90's not getting hooked on the addictions that were eating my friends. You could say that D&D (as well as Mage) was my anti-drug. This is fueling some of my issues. I've been playing D&D instead of doing these other things, and now they're making D&D more like these other things?

I responded to some of this in lapak's journal, so there's a little more over there.

[alanrileyscott.livejournal.com]

There's definitely some new jargon, but it's new to EVERYONE. You don't know what a Striker is, but neither does the guy who plays WoW (he might think "it's like DPS", but that's not an especially apt comparison.)

I don't play MMOs either, and nor do I play Magic. And I love the game. (Caveats: I played a sneak-attacking rogue in 3.5, so I took pretty well to the increased importance of positioning. If the battle grid makes you throw up your hands in disgust, then you might not like 4e. Also, I GM a lot, and am biased in that 4e makes game prep a lot easier.)

I definitely recommend that fans of previous editions try 4e (not necessarily buy it, mind you--the sucker's $120 plus tax) and see if they'll enjoy it.

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

We're planning to introduce Tani to D&D this summer. I take it you're saying we should buy all the third edition books we can get our hands on now. (Or stick with the first edition books in the attic that would have become worth 1000GP if only I'd played with them less. :-)

[cnoocy]

Not necessarily. You should look at 4e and see if it fits with what you want to do. You could also look at RPGs other than D&D. There's a huge variety of games out now, some of them specifically aimed at kids.